Hi everyone, welcome to the A6 and Z podcast. I'm Sonal and today I'm here with Adam Grant,

who is a Wharton professor and a New York Times columnist who covers the topics of work and psychology.

And he has a new book out, Originals, How Nonconformists Move the World. And we thought it'd be

really interesting to talk to Adam about this because there's a lot of

overlap between nonconformists and entrepreneurs. Welcome, Adam. Thank you. The first thing I want to

start with is how you actually define a nonconformist because I think there's a whole spectrum,

and I use spectrum in both the psychological sense and just a descriptive sense. How do you know

someone's a nonconformist and not

like a good rebel versus a bad rebel, like someone who's actually detrimental to society?

When I think about nonconformists, I'm thinking about people who don't just reject the status

quo for the sake of being different or for disagreeing, but actually care about making things better

for other people. So I think about, you know, nonconformity

as being, you can think about, you know, creative rebels who say, look, you know, there's a standard

way of doing things that isn't right and I think I can improve it. Or you can think about being a moral

rebel and say, you know, there's a rule, a law, a policy that doesn't make sense and that's hurting a particular group. And I want

to try to do something about that. So it's a constructive form of nonconformism, essentially.

Exactly. One funny anecdote that you mentioned, which made me laugh out loud, is that a person's

choice of browser indicates where they fit. So if you're like a Chrome user, for example, or a

Firefox Mozilla user,

you're more likely to be along those lines than not. It feels kind of obvious in hindsight,

but it's a really funny thing to come across. Like, how did you sort of come up with that?

Well, I wish I could take credit for it. I was sitting at a conference one day,

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