People used to always die at home. It was a profoundly spiritual experience that families witnessed.

In the medicalization of the dying process, we've completely removed that awareness from lay people.

And the problem is that our medical system is a secular system.

So people wind up in these situations where they're

overwhelmed, don't know what to do, and then they're spiritually stranded.

Welcome to the Crossway podcast, a show where we sit down with authors each week for thoughtful

interviews about the Bible, theology, church history, and the Christian life.

I'm Matt Tully, and today I'm talking with Catherine Butler.

Catherine is a trauma and critical care surgeon who served on the faculty of Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School.

She's written numerous times for Christianity today and the Gospel Coalition, and she's

the author of Between Life and Death, a gospel-centered

guide to end-of-life medical care. In our conversation today, Catherine and I discuss the things

that she learned during her decade working in an ICU. She also discusses common misconceptions about

CPR, ventilators, and other forms of intensive care medicine, as well as

practical steps that everyone should take for making sure their wishes and the wishes of their loved ones

are honored at the end of life. Let's get started. Catherine, thank you for joining us on the Crossway

podcast.

Oh, thanks so much for having me, Matt. It's really good to be here.

You spent about 10 years working in an ICU. And part of that time you were a trauma surgeon.

What exactly happens in an ICU? And how does that relate to other sections of a hospital,

maybe like the ER? So an ER is where you come initially to receive treatment acutely.

And patients who come into the ER will range from people who, I'm not kidding, have a rash,

...