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Money For the Rest of Us

A "Safe" 6% Yield: The Case for Investment Grade CLOs

Money For the Rest of Us

J. David Stein

Investing, Investing Podcast, Business, Economics, Economy

4.5 • 1.4K Ratings

🗓️ 8 March 2023

⏱️ 36 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

How leveraged loans and CLOs work and how to invest in them. What are the risks and opportunities with the new CLO ETFs.

Topics covered include:

  • What are the characteristics of leveraged loans and how David has invested in them in the past, both professionally and personally.
  • Why LIBOR reference rate for leveraged loans is being phased out
  • What is the current investing climate for leveraged loans
  • How collateralized loan obligation work
  • Why insurance companies are fighting over CLOs
  • What are the different ways to invest in CLOs


For more information on this episode click here.

Show Notes

Companies, Lenders Clash Over Loan Spreads in Switch from Libor by Mark Maurer—The Wall Street Journal

Libor: The Spider Network—The Wall Street Journal

Collateralized Loan Obligations (CLOs) Primer by Jennifer Johnson—NAIC and The Center for Insurance Policy Research

Investing In The Middle: Tapping Into Opportunities in Middle Market Lending—AllianceBernstein

Top 10 US CLO Managers: CLO AUM (30 Nov 2022)—CLO Research

Default, Transition, and Recovery: 2021 Annual Global Leveraged Loan CLO Default And Rating Transition Study—S&P Global Ratings

U.S. BSL CLO And Leveraged Finance Quarterly: Is Winter Coming? by Stephen Anderberg, Daniel Hu, Et al.—S&P Global Ratings

Risk Assessment of Structured Securities - CLOs by Eric Kolchinsky, Charles A. Therriault, Marc Perlman—National Association of Insurance Commissioners (NAIC)

Monthly US CLO Index - December 2022—Fitch Ratings

Private equity-backed insurers under US scrutiny over risky loans by Antoine Gara and Sujeet Indap—The Financial Times

Private Equity Taps Insurers' Cash to Speed Up Growth by Matt Wirz and Leslie Scism—The Wall Street Journal

Investments Mentioned​

Virtus Seix Floating Rate Income Fund (SAMBX)

Virtus Seix Senior Loan ETF (SEIX)​

Invesco Senior Loan ETF (BKLN)​

DoubleLine Flexible Income Fund (DFLEX)​

BlackRock Debt Strategies Fund (DSU)

BlackRock AAA CLO ETF (CLOA)

iShares Treasury Floating Rate Bond ETF (TFLO)​​

Janus AAA CLO ETF (JAAA)

Janus B-BBB CLO ETF (JBB)​

VanEck CLO ETF (CLOI)

Eaglepoint Credit Company (ECC)

Oxford Lane Capital Corp (OXLC)

Related Episodes

305: Are Banks Safe?

206: Be Bear Aware of Bank Loans

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Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:00.0

Walking the money for the rest of us, this is a personal financial show on money, how

0:05.8

it works, how to invest it, and how to live without worrying about it.

0:09.8

I'm your host David Stein, today is episode 423.

0:13.3

It's titled, A Safe 6% Yield, the Case for Investment Grade C-L-Os.

0:21.2

About five years ago, in episode 205, we discussed a rather obscure asset class that goes by

0:26.4

multiple names.

0:27.8

The names include leveraged loans, syndicated bank loans, floating rate loans, or senior loans.

0:34.6

These are loans issued by banks to non-investment grade companies, and those loans are then sold

0:40.3

or syndicated into the market.

0:43.3

Buying and selling of these loans is not as smooth as it is to purchase a stock.

0:50.1

The settlement time for a transaction to go through can be upwards of 20 days compared

0:54.6

to two days for most securities.

0:57.8

Leveraged loans are called senior loans because they have to be paid before any other debt

1:03.1

that the company may have on its balance sheet.

1:07.1

Another advantage of these leveraged loans is their variable rate loans.

1:11.9

They pay an interest rate that is tied to short-term interest rates.

1:19.0

They pay more, there's a spread above the short-term base rate that is used to calculate

1:25.0

the yield, but because it's variable rate, there is no interest rate risk.

1:30.7

These loans don't go down in price when interest rates increase.

1:36.5

Leveraged loans do have risk, there's default risk, because again, these are non-investment

1:41.2

grade.

1:42.2

These are not the most stellar credits, and so it's often helpful to have an active

...

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