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The Ezra Klein Show

A Radical Proposal for True Democracy

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 23 February 2021

⏱️ 45 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

One thing I want to do on this show is give space to truly radical ideas, to expand the boundaries of our political and moral imaginations. And Hélène Landemore, a political scientist at Yale, has one of those ideas. She calls it “open democracy,” and the premise is simple: What we call democracy is not very democratic. The role of the people is confined to elections, to choosing the elites who will represent us. Landemore argues that our political thinking is stuck in “18th-century epistemologies and technologies.” It is not enough. We’ve learned much in the last few hundred years about random sampling, about the benefits of cognitively diverse groups, about the ways elections are captured by those with the most social and financial capital. Landemore wants to take what we’ve learned and build a new vision of democracy atop it — one in which we let groups of randomly selected citizens actually deliberate and govern. One in which we trust deliberation and diversity, not elections and political parties, to shape our ideas and to restrain our worst impulses. This is a challenging idea. I don’t know that it would work. But it’s a provocation worth wrestling with, particularly at this moment, when our ideas about democracy have so far outpaced the thin, corrupted ways in which we practice it. You’ve heard people say, “We’re a republic, not a democracy.” Landemore’s challenge is this: What if we were a democracy? We honor those who came before us for radically reimagining who could govern, and how politics could work. But did they really discover the terminal state of democracy? Or are there bold steps left for us to take? Recommendations: Liquid Reign by Tim Reutemann The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas The Principles of Representative Government by Bernard Manin Mortelle Adèle Book Series "The Ezra Klein Show" is hiring an Associate Producer! Apply to work with us by visiting nytco.com/careers. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rogé Karma and Jeff Geld; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld.

Transcript

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0:00.0

Hello, welcome to Asura Clunch Show.

0:06.9

I am Asura Clunch.

0:24.4

So before we begin today, a job announcement.

0:26.5

We are looking for an associate producer.

0:46.4

So the episode today, I've been thinking about how to introduce this.

0:53.1

My colleague, Ross Douthet, you may know him, he's argued that we live in a decadent

0:58.2

age.

0:59.2

And decadence here is this pathology that comes from a mixture of affluence, so things are

1:03.9

pretty good for a lot of people and lack of purpose, a lack of grand ideological goals

1:09.2

and ambitions.

1:10.5

And when you put those together in a society, you stagnate.

1:13.8

You're not driving in any particular direction and there's a lot of force behind the status

1:18.0

quo that shuts down anybody who wants to really change things.

1:21.0

I've been thinking about this politically quite a bit.

1:24.8

We are still running here in this country on the fumes of political ideas from the 18th

1:30.1

century.

1:31.1

We're trying to perfect them, to live up to them in a way they never did.

1:34.8

Sure.

1:35.8

But for all that we've learned, all that we've seen, the form of government that we practice

1:39.2

and even that we aspire to hasn't really changed since the dawn of this country, is that

1:45.0

a function actually that working so well at this point?

1:48.5

Or is that a function of our inability now to imagine alternatives, to believe as those

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