Welcome to Current Affairs. My name is Nathan Robinson. I'm the editor-in-chief of Current Affairs Magazine, and I am joined today by the wonderful Garrison Lovely. He is a freelance journalist. He is the host of the most interesting people I know podcast.

He has also been a contributor to current affairs magazine itself,

having written an anonymous expose of McKinsey a couple of years back,

which is no longer anonymous because Garrison has

recently published a cover story for The Nation magazine, which is also on McKinsey in which

he comes out as a McKinsey whistleblower. Garrison lovely, delighted to have you on current affairs today. It's been a long time

coming. It has been, you know, you and I have known each other for a while and you've been, you know,

the stuff that you've done for our magazine has been great. I was always sad that the McKinsey,

you couldn't have the McKinsey thing under your name in case they came and killed you.

They haven't yet, so we'll see.

But now, now you're fearless.

You've now done two extended pieces on McKinsey where you worked.

Why have you now dedicated yourself to exposing the misdeeds of this particular company?

Yeah, I mean, it's the first job I had out of college.

I went in idealistic, hoping to have some positive impact on the world through the work

while also getting to work with smart people, do something that helps open doors,

whatever.

It felt like kind of the best of all worlds.

And I started out working on the Rikers project at McKinsey, which is trying to reduce violence

within Rikers Island jail complex in New York City. And the thing that really made me disillusioned

with McKinsey and started a years-long disillusionment

with capitalism itself was working for ICE while at McKinsey and just seeing what a moral

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