This is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Joyce, fans, is worried about whether American

democracy is sturdy enough to withstand what she describes as the anti-democratic moves that

President Donald Trump and his administration have spewed out with overwhelming force and

velocity. In her new book, she writes about how to save the republic and what we can

accomplish in the future if we renew our commitment to democracy. For people who are wondering,

but what can I do, she has suggestions. Her new bestselling book is titled, Giving Up is

unforgivable, a manual for keeping a democracy.

You may know Vance as a longtime legal analyst for MSNBC, which has been rebranded as MS now.

After 25 years as a career federal prosecutor, she was appointed by President Obama as the U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, a position she held throughout his presidency. She resigned in 2017 a day before Trump's first inauguration. She also writes the

civil discourse newsletter on Substack, co-hosts two podcasts, Sisters in Law and Cafe Insider,

and is a distinguished professor of the practice of law at the University of Alabama School of Law.

Let's start with a clip dating back to last March when Judge James Bostberg had ordered the Trump administration to turn around deportation flights of Venezuelan migrants heading to El Salvador.

When those flights did not turn around, it raised the question whether the administration was defying the judge's orders.

Trump was asked whether he would ever defy a court order in an interview on Laura Ingram's

Fox News show, The Ingram Engram Engerner, The Ingram Engram Engel. Here's Trump's response.

I never did defy a court order.

And you wouldn't in the future. No, you can't do that. However, we have bad judges. We have

very bad judges. And these are judges that shouldn't be allowed. I think at a certain point,

you have to start looking at what do you do when you have a rogue judge. The judge that we're talking about, he's, you look at his other rulings.

I mean, rulings unrelated.

But having to do with me, he's a lunatic.

Joyce Vance, welcome to Fresh Air.

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