It's our first interview that we've done together, Lawrence, when we've really been journalistic

peers, you know?

Yeah.

So good.

Yeah, this is gonna be fun then.

This is Death, Sex, and Money.

The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot and need to talk about more.

I'm Anna Seal.

If you've listened to this show over the years, chances are you might have heard me interview

Lawrence Bartley.

I first talked with him when he was incarcerated at Sing Sing in upstate New York.

And over the years, I've talked with him and his wife Renem, as he got out on parole

and began a career in journalism.

This is Inside Story, the only show about the system by people who lived it.

I'm Lawrence Bartley.

Our prisons have gotten so violent that even if you didn't go in with a trauma disorder,

it's hard to come out without one.

Lawrence covers criminal justice issues for the Marshall Project.

And earlier this year, he launched an interview show with Vice News.

In fact, just yesterday, well, this morning, I just came back from South Carolina from

a prison there.

And just seeing the things that the men and their cherish, like their barbershop area,

...