Depression. Studies show that most of us probably know at least one person who struggles with it,

and some of us might even struggle with it ourselves. Always discouraging and sometimes debilitating,

depression can numb our emotions, strain our relationships, and rob us of our joy. What should Christians think about

this struggle, a struggle that we often seek to hide even from those closest to us? My guest

today is Katie Butler, and in our conversation we discuss these questions and more. Katie

is trained in surgery and critical care at Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School.

She's also someone who knows what it's like to struggle with clinical depression, even as a Christian.

Drawing on God's word, the insights of modern medicine and her own experiences,

Katie has some really important, encouraging insights to share with us,

insights that offer hope, both for those who struggle with depression and those seeking to care

for someone else who does. Katie's latest book is called What Does Depression Mean for My Faith,

which is part of the TGC Hard Questions series from Crossway. Let's get started.

Well, Katie, thanks so much for joining me today to talk about a really important,

really challenging topic. Oh, thanks so much for having me, Matt. It's a privilege as always.

So perhaps more than ever today, it seems like the topic of depression is one that we here discussed a ton.

You know, there's probably never been a time that we've had more access to more support and conversation about this difficult topic than we maybe do now.

And yet my sense is that for many Christians, the topic and even just more broadly

mental health topics in general can still feel very confusing, sometimes controversial, and

embarrassing to talk about with other people. Have you seen that in your own experience with other Christians?

Oh, absolutely.

So I actually knew medicine before I knew the Lord.

We've talked before about how the Lord worked through my work and the suffering I saw there to bring me to Jesus.

...