Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're

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Today I'm speaking with Mark O'Lillah. Mark is a professor at Columbia University

and a prize-winning essayist for the New York Review of Books and many other publications.

His books include The Shipwrecked Mind, The Stillborn God, The Reckless Mind, and His latest book,

which is what we discuss, is The Once in Future Liberal. And Mark and I talk about essentially

the nature and history of liberalism in the United States and how identity politics has changed it.

And we talk about the ways in which identity politics may or may not be legitimate.

We talk about the role of class in American society, wealth inequality,

and we disagree about a few things. We agree about others, but it was a very enjoyable conversation.

And one that many of us who care about the future of politics have been having more and more.

So now without further delay, I bring you Mark O'Lillah.

I am here with Mark O'Lillah. Mark, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Good to be here.

So we have a mutual friend in Andrew Sullivan. I think that was our connection and Andrew,

someone who I have sparred with to our mutual amusement and benefit. And he's the great example for

me, of someone who you can disagree stridently with and still become friends. This is really the

...