I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Hey, I'm Adam Carolla.

Hi, my name is Penn Gillette.

Not only listening, I'm a guest.

I'm a pen and teller, and I am the fourth listener.

And I am the fourth listener.

And that must make me at least the fourth listener.

It's Dogma Debate with your host, Michael Regillio.

For extra content and to join the conversation, please head over to dogma debate.com and join our Patreon.

And welcome to what absolutely promises, I mean it so deeply this time, to be an amazing episode of dogma debate.

Because I have Pam Hemp Hill here.

And as you guys know, I think we're in dark times.

And when the story of America is told, we're going to talk about the heroes, the people

that stood up, the people that did the hard thing and went against the grain

of their of their ilk, of their tribe. And Pam is one of those people, in my opinion. She was a

Trump supporter. She stormed the Capitol on January 6th. She's had a change of heart. She's had a

change of mind. She's seen the light from a progressive

point of view. And she is now actually refusing Donald Trump's pardon. She doesn't want it. She

wants no part of MAGA. And I am so honored to have her with us today. Pam, welcome to Dogma

debate. Oh, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. Absolutely. So, you know, I'm curious about how,

how, where did you start? I read that you voted for Obama. Is that accurate? Yes. I didn't tell,

my family, though. Oh, okay. So you are, you are steeped in red state culture, I would imagine.

...