Eric Ries wrote the book that changed how the entire world builds startups. Now he's back with a more urgent argument: the way we're taught to build companies is quietly turning them against everything that made them worth building in the first place. The creator of The Lean Startup has spent years watching mission-driven founders get fired from their own companies, watching the spark that started everything get extinguished by the very success they worked so hard to create—and he's finally written the blueprint to stop it. In this interview, Eric breaks down the core ideas behind his new book Incorruptible, why your corporate charter was designed to sound boring so you'd ignore it, and how the loyalty of your best customers is the most valuable—and most endangered—asset your business has. What you'll learn in this interview: • Why the metrics you're tracking are actively destroying customer loyalty—and what to measure instead • The IMVU pivot story: how six months of data finally broke through Eric's stubbornness and forced the pivot that saved the company • Why product improvements that don't change customer behavior aren't improvements at all • How to know when it's time to pivot—and why the real problem is never the decision itself but getting your team to agree on the facts • Why DTC brands are systematically burning their most loyal customers with re-acquisition marketing they've already earned • The Saul Price story: how the founder of Fed-Mart was locked out of his own company—and came back to build Costco • Why only 20% of founders are still CEO three years after IPO—and the governance decisions made at founding that cause it • Why your corporate structure was deliberately designed to sound boring so you'll ignore it until it's too late • The two paths every mission-driven founder must master: the path of ethos and the path of integrity • How Novo Nordisk's 100-year-old governance structure—built by a Nobel laureate in the 1920s—accidentally created the most profitable pharmaceutical in history If you're an early-stage founder, a DTC operator who cares about building something that lasts, or anyone who's ever wondered why the companies that start with the most idealism seem to end up the most corrupt, this conversation will fundamentally change how you think about structure, loyalty, and what it actually means to build a company worth protecting. SAVE 50% ON OMNISEND FOR 3 MONTHS Get 50% off your first 3 months of email and SMS marketing with Omnisend with the code FOUNDR50. Just head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://your.omnisend.com/foundr⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started. WANT TO GROW YOUR BRAND WITH META ADS? Join the Foundr Operators Waitlist → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/operators⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ HOW WE CAN HELP YOU SCALE YOUR BUSINESS FASTER Learn directly from 7, 8 & 9-figure founders inside Foundr+ Start your $1 trial → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/startdollartrial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ PREFER A CUSTOM ROADMAP AND 1-ON-1 COACHING? → Starting from scratch? Apply here → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-start-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ → Already have a store? Apply here → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://foundr.com/pages/coaching-growth-application⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ CONNECT WITH NATHAN CHAN Instagram → ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/nathanchan⁠⁠⁠ LinkedIn → ⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathanhchan/⁠⁠⁠ CONNECT WITH ERIC RIES Instagram → ⁠https://www.instagram.com/ericriesactual/ LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries/ Website → https://theleanstartup.com/ FOLLOW FOUNDR FOR MORE BUSINESS GROWTH STRATEGIES YouTube → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/2uyvzdt⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Website → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/foundr/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/foundr⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.twitter.com/foundr⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ LinkedIn → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/foundr/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Podcast → ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.foundr.com/podcast⁠