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Apply with £100,000 annual income or £100,000 savings or investments with HSBC UK or Premier status abroad. Hello and welcome to the Battleground Ukraine's big interview with me Saul David and Patrick Bishop.

Today we're talking to the military analyst and author Frank Ledwidge. Frank is a former barrister

and military intelligence officer whose books include losing small wars, aerial

warfare and rebel law. He lectures on combat ethics to the advanced command and staff

course at the UK Staff College at Shrebenham. Frank, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks. Great to be here, sir. Now, you recently accompanied a high-level

delegation to Ukraine that included a former British general, the head of the Secret Intelligence

Service, the former head, that is, and as you put it in your message to us, are the UK, US, and

European political and think tank types. Can you tell me what this was all about,

the purpose of the delegation, who you met and where you went? Yes, there were about 20 of us

from across Europe and the US. From the US, we've got people like Jan Brasinski, Ivo Dahlia.

We had a former president of Croatia, Kalinda Grabber,

and various other similar types. And the odd hangar unlike myself and the other folk you mentioned.

And the Ukrainians do quite a, this was organized by a think tank called Globsec, which is,

it's not very well known here. I've just come back from their sort of flagship

conference where I was accompanied, if you like, by Macron and Fandallitin and such.

It's an absolutely vital and by far the most important think tank in central and eastern Europe,

much bigger, I think, than anything we've got here,

...