Listening is really hard. I'm not saying that to make you feel better, although I hope it does make you feel better.

It's not hard because of our smartphones. It's not hard because we're distracted. It's hard because human beings, the species, homo sapien, does not listen well.

Evolutionarily, we don't really need to.

Hello and welcome. I'm Shane Parrish and this is another episode of The Knowledge Project, to podcast, exploring the ideas, methods, and mental models that help you learn from the best of what other people have already figured out.

You can learn more in step-to-date at fs.blog slash podcast.

On the show today is Celeste Headley, who is a journalist, opera singer, and writer who is well known for Ted Talks about the need to improve the face-to-face conversation.

Celeste has worked in public radio for nearly two decades as reporter and host. She's known for her ability to have great conversations and this is no let down.

This interview is all about the art of conversation. It's time to listen and learn.

Before we get started, here's a quick word from our sponsor.

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Metal Lab wants to bring the unique design philosophy to your project. Let them take your brainstorm and turn it into the next billion dollar app from idea sketch.

On the back of a napkin to a final ship product, check them out at metallab.co.

That's metallab.co. And when you get in touch, tell them Shane sent you.

Celeste, welcome to the knowledge project.

It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

I'm super excited to talk to you today. I am also a little nervous. I mean, you are a professional at conversations and this is kind of disconcerting.

Well, on the other hand, you know it's going to go well.

I hope so.

Your grandfather was a famous conductor. William Grant still.

And you heard a lot of music kind of growing up in the house. Was there a moment when you stopped sort of hearing music and started listening and understanding it?

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