You know, I went broke many, many times, but the downswings are probably the most important part. And typically with like a breakdown, things are going badly. That's an opportunity for a breakthrough. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off on the road. Let's travel. Today we got Daniel Negeranu. He is here. I've been watching this guy on TV. feels like half my life

is All right, today we got Daniel Negeranu. He is here. I've been watching this guy on TV.

Feels like half my life. He is a poker player who I think you've had over 50 million in tournament

cashes, so tournament winnings. You're known for your ability to read people, for your longevity

in the game, for your personality and how you've built a brand around the game of poker. I think you've won, something like, is it five, six World Series of poker bracelets? Well, we're at seven, but it should be a lot more, if I'm being honest. And he's humble to boot. So there he is, Dan O'Agrono. Listen, people are going to be like, why are you guys having a poker player on a business podcast? And the reason is, A, I'm selfish. I play poker my whole life and I wanted to talk to this guy. And that's what the podcast is. But B, there are so many parallels between poker and business, whether it's, you know, thinking about it in terms of investing, around bankroll management, around pot odds and things like, there's all these frameworks that I've used for poker in business, but also the people side, the human side, the reading people side, and you were one of the best at that. So, uh, thanks for coming on, dude. Absolutely. You're absolutely right with your description, too, because there's just so many things about poker. Poker, you know, you have to register as a small business anyway right you're just self-employed and you know you know getting out of

bed to go and work it's up to you but uh you still have to you know make smart decisions invest and

look for plus tv situations so sam i don't know if you if you followed poker like back in the day

the sort of the famous players yeah i watched it on tv it on TV with Phil Ivy and Daniel. I've seen Daniels so many times. And they look like, a lot of his, like, Doyle Brunson, they look like cowboys, right? And they had these big personalities. And it was like superheroes who would come to a table. And one guy was just like the stone cold you can't read him another guy was

the talker another guy he just was you know had no fear gene in his body he could just risk it all

and that was the sort of persona of like these charismatic like personality poker players and then if

if you fast forward now it's like hoodie on sunglasses on scrawny kid who's doing math and basically like is, is, is, uh, in many ways like it's a, it's a numbers game and versus like the way that poker used to have this sort of gun slinger mentality. Daniel, is that accurate how I described it? Pretty much. I mean, you know, the difference between, and I think this is true with chess and other games too, the difference between like, like Bobby Fisher was asked, you know, he's like, well, who's the greatest chess player

of all time, right? And he's like, it's not fair. You can't make this. Like the players in 1905, right, brilliant people, they didn't have access to the tools that they have now. So with both, or these kids more, back in my day, people had to figure it out on their own. Doyle Brunson, before he had

computers, he would run simulations by literally getting a deck of cards, a piece of paper and a pencil. He would take an ace and a king against the pair of fours, run out the board and say, okay, Ace King won. And he would do it like 100,000 times, right? Now, obviously, the click of a button, you know, you have this data available to you. So it was a different type of skill set. And you're right. A lot of the more modern players are much more deliberate. They take a lot more time because they're actually doing, for the most part, they're doing calculations we didn't used to do. It used to be like this. I'd look at Sam and I'm like, yeah, Sam's full of it. He doesn't have it. I call, right? That's the equation. However, now people are doing what's called, this might be a little bit above your audience's level of understanding, but counting combinations. I'm just saying, because it's very, even for most poker players, they don't understand like combinatorics, okay? So, for example, you think your opponent has ace king. How many

ace kings are possible? Right? That's a difficult question for somebody who doesn't play poker,

right? With there's four aces and there's four kings, right? So that's 16. Okay. So what you're doing

in your head or what these people are doing is they're counting, not just ace king is one 16 and then using other effects to decide like you know the pot odds what they have it like i said it's kind of complex and that probably shouldn't go down it's it's sort of like why like i like i like this idea of like babe ruth who shows up hungover and like a smoke and a sick right before he goes on to like hit and then now it's just like all jackdudes who just hit home ruds and like foul like who are technically perfect but I'm like I want the guy who ate steak and eggs in the morning and smokes a sig while he's like he's practicing the more updated version of that is absolutely John Daly right Tiger Woods was asked one time like why do you, right? Like, why are you up at 4 a.m.?

And he's like, if I was as talented as John Daly, I wouldn't have to. Because like, you know, really, because Tiger Woods is getting up at 5 a.m., right, 4 a.m. to go golf. And he sees John Daly at the bar, drinking, smoking, whatever. And they tee off it, like, nine, right? And if you know, John Daly goes out there and shoots 63, you know, I, I review Sam.

It's kind of romantic, frankly.

Yeah. And they tee off it like nine, right? And John Daly goes out there and shoot 63, you know, I re with you, Sam. It's kind of romantic, frankly. Just that old swash buckler who just shows up and can still, you know. Was there a moment like that that hooked to you? Because, you know, I think the first poker boom that I was a part of was the Chris Moneymaker thing. And I remember the final table with him and Sammy Farha. And Farha is, you know, this kind of experienced player. Moneymaker was this amateur who kind of like won a mini tournament that got him a ticket to the thing. It was like Willie Wonka. He got a golden ticket. Then he got in and got all the way there. And I just vividly remember that was great TV. Was there a great TV moment or like a poker final table moment that for you, you were like, this is awesome. I want to be a part of this. Well, yeah, I'll answer your question. But first, you know, the moment you talk about, that's the sort of a watershed moment in poker, right? Because it was the first time where some amateur guy named Chris Moneymaker, like you can't

make this up, you know, he put $40 in on an online site, turned it into $10,000 seat, sits there.

And now he's against the grizzled vet, Sammy vet, you know, far out with the cigarette

and the suit and the whole old school vibe, you know, and he ends up winning. So that for me,

...