Welcome to the Making Sense podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and we'll only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense podcast, you'll need to

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please consider becoming one. I am here with Gary Kasparov.

Gary, thanks for joining me again.

Thank you for inviting me.

It was great to see you.

So I think it's been something like five years, four or five years, six years maybe since we've spoken.

A lot has happened, but still we were speaking under the shadow of Trump and Trumpism.

I think each of the times we spoke, I think our first conversation was in 2016, and then

maybe like 22, I think that's every year.

So then about four years.

Well, first, just to introduce you properly, many people will know you as one of the greatest

chess masters of all time and world champion

for many years, and maybe we'll return to the topic of chess at some point. But now you're

currently the chairman of the Renewed Democracy Initiative, and also you have a substack,

the next move.org, which is associated with that foundation and where you write,

tell people what does the renewed democracy initiative do? What are you focused on?

I mean, I think we can guess from the title that you care about democracy, but what specific

problems are you focused on at the moment? Yeah, I also pretty active on the other side of

the Atlantic. So in Europe, pretty active on the other side of the Atlantic, so in

Europe, where there's most of my colleagues in Russian opposition located. And the Renew Democracy

...