I am out on the ledge with you and Kim Atkins' story. Because you know, in our podcast, sisters-in-law, it's you and me, girl. We're always the two that are out on the ledge worried about the future of democracy. And I live on that ledge. I mean, I have a sleeping bag and a TV out there because I don't know. We set it up real nice. We made it comfy.

It's good, the ledge. I think it's smart to be realistic. I don't believe in sugarcoding what's going on. I think that that would be dangerous.

I'm Kimberly Atkins Store, and this is Justice by Design, a podcast that is focused on finding solutions to the issues we face together as a society.

And I think there is no issue that I talk about more or more, no issue that is more front of mind for me than protecting democracy.

The basic way our government functions for the people, a government

by the people, not one of autocracy or oligarchs or despots. But how do we all get there?

What is the role that each of us has to play? Well, you know what? A good friend of mine and someone who you all

probably know very well is writing a book about just that. It's called Giving Up is Unforgivable, a manual for

keeping a democracy. And the author is my friend, my sister's in law, co-host, Joyce Fants. Hi, Joyce. Hi, Kim. How you do?

Thank you so, I'm great. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to have you.

I'm glad to be with you. So you need no introduction, but I always ask my guests to introduce themselves

briefly. So if there is a listener somewhere who doesn't know who you are,

they can get to know you a little bit better. So tell us a little bit about what you do.

So I'm a mom of four kids, mostly grown up. My husband's less grown up. I teach at the University of Alabama School of Law, and I teach in the area of

criminal law and constitutional law. And of course, like Kim, I talk on television on MSNBC and NBC.

And I also co-host a great podcast, hashtag Sisters in Law with Kim, Barb McWade, and Jill Weinbanks.

I do another podcast with my former U.S. attorney colleague, Prit Barrara.

I was an Obama-era-U.S. attorney in Birmingham, Alabama, and I talk about insider stuff every Tuesday.

And then last but not least, I write a substack newsletter

called Civil Discourse almost every night. You know, it didn't start out that way. And I bet you

feel the same way about this podcast. Kim, I thought civil discourse would just be every once in a while.

I would write about an interesting issue at the intersection of law and politics. And here we are.

...