Where would you see the letters? C, D, E, F, L-O-P-T and Z?

Hopefully. The answer to that at the end of the show.

My name's Tom Scott, and this is lateral.

Our guests today have been selected by a short list of attributes we like to call the four

seas, cleverness, competence, charisma and caffeine. So with that, we'll have some stimulating

conversation with Bill Sunderland returning as one of our regulars, one half of Escape this

podcast. How are you doing? I'm doing well. I'm excited to do another one. I return so often because it's so much fun to play this game.

We always love having you back. How are things going?

They're going well. Lots of podcast stuff is going well. It's late, it's very late, Tom, it's very late,

and I'm tired. So if you're listening at home and you think, oh, this guy doesn't know

anything, I know everything two hours ago. It's slowly disappearing. We have three guests

across three very different time zones right now. It is something close to midnight for Bill, and it is somewhere

close to 3pm for Anna Porshyski. Welcome back to the show. I have you still as materials,

scientist and storyteller. Yeah, absolutely. That hasn't changed. Hello from London, everybody.

To be fair, we're recording this about

10 minutes after finishing the last time you were on. So yeah, haven't moved. Yeah,

I'm a material scientist and story tell us and my work is all about trying to find fun and

interesting narratives, different ways of telling scientific stories to engage those

are different audiences with ideas and science and engineering.

And how was it last time? Because it was your first time on the show the last time you were

here? It was. You know what? It actually really reminds me of back in the day when I was a lab

scientist because there's very much an element of like just spitballing ideas,

...