Welcome back to the Lincoln Project. I'm your host, Reed Gaelin. Today I'm joined by

Nicole Pearl Roth, author of the book This Is How They Tell Me The World Ends, The Cyber

Weapons Arms Race. In addition to our book, Nicole is an award-winning cybersecurity

journalist for The New York Times, where her work has been optioned for both film and television.

Before joining the Times, she was deputy editor at Forbes, where she covered venture capital

and web startups. Plus, she's a regular lecturer at the Stanford Graduate School of Business

and a graduate of Princeton and Stanford University, which makes guys like me and Rob, who are

state school MOOCs, feel just about where we probably should be. So, Nicole, welcome to

the show. Thanks for having me, Reed. So, you know, I want to talk about the article

that you and David sang her had in the Times earlier this week because it pretty much

lays out everything we've seen in the last few months. But first, I want to talk about

the book. This is how they tell me the world ends. This book scared the hell out of me.

And I hope that's what you were trying to do because it worked. In fact, Rob told me

before the show that there was at least one bookstore that put it in the wrong place

to put it in the horror section, which, you know, depending on your definition of horror,

I think it certainly belongs in. But you've been working for the Times in this regard for

a number of years. Talk to us about how you decided to finally put this book together.

Was there anything about this sort of cyber security, cyber crime, cyber warfare world

that you didn't know from your, you know, day in, day out reporting that you learned

as you went through this book? You know, it's almost like an honor when it appears

in the horror section because it really is the best example of the truth, the stranger

than fiction, this underground market. And, you know, from my purchase at the New York Times,

...