Welcome to the Making Sense podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and we'll only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense podcast, you'll need to

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please consider becoming one. I am here with David Frum. David, thanks for joining me.

Thank you.

It's been a while. I feel like we speak more than we do because I just consume your stuff

over at the Atlantic, so I know what you're thinking about. But I think it's been some years

since we've done a podcast together. I think that's right. Since then, I've ventured into your domain. I've started a podcast of my own. And I just, I want to salute you. I think I always knew that it was not easy. I didn't know how not easy it was. So, so Maestro, you know how it's done, and I take my hat off to you. Oh, nice. Well, congratulations on the show. It's the David From show over at the Atlantic.

So, thank you.

That's fantastic.

Well, let's jump into the current moment.

We're, what, six or so months into the second Trump administration.

There's a lot we could talk about where the fires of controversy are currently raging on the,

about the Epstein case.

Trump and his courtiers have been amazingly inept at putting those fires out.

And I would love to know the reasons why you think that is.

But let's start with just the big picture on the domestic front.

How has it been these last six months from your point of view?

And what has surprised you?

What has been worse than you thought?

What has been better than you thought?

Yeah.

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