In a focus group in the late in the year 2015, around this time, in fact, in 2015,

I sat in a focus group and among Republicans, because we were trying to box Trump out in the Republican primary still.

And a woman said, no, no, Trump can't be corrupted.

He's the richest man in the world.

He built every building in New York. He's the richest man in the world. He built every building in New York.

He's the, he's the most powerful person in New York City and in New York and in business anywhere.

Everyone, and I was like, the fuck is this. Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well

trained, well equipped, and battlehardt. There is not a liberal

America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America. Good night and good luck.

Hey folks, welcome back to the Lincoln Project podcast. I am your host. As always, Rick Wilson.

We are out of the Thanksgiving to

Election Day recovery window, and I am joined by my good friend, recent congressional candidate,

all around good thinker about American life and politics and our destiny as a country.

John Avlon, as always, John, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining me, my friend. How are you doing after the election? Well, I'm doing all right, brother, Rick. I appreciate it. Look, I'm more concerned about the country, even than, you know, our campaign. I was proud of the race we ran. I think we fought the good fight and the good fight goes on. And I think a lot of the themes

that we talked about, you know, they need to rebuild the middle, rebuild the middle of our politics,

rebuild the middle of our economy, remain really urgent, relevant messages for, I think,

where the country wants to go and where the Democratic Party needs to go.

And because I think a lot of those late-breaking undecided as independents who ultimately voted for Trump didn't sign up for Project 2025. They didn't sign up for, you know, this, for us, predictable sort of chaos contingent he's trying to put in control.

And the pendulum will swing back, but it's going to be a, it's going to be a rough time for a few years.

I think that's right. And I think, I think you said something, and you've talked about this a lot.

We've talked about this over the years, and you talked about it a lot in the campaign, I think correctly, of rebuilding the middle. There is a perception

among a lot of Americans that we are, you know, 50% in a hard right camp and 50% in a hard left

...