While I have devoted my life to ending abortion and I believe that a singular focus on abolishing abortion is perfectly justified and honorable.

I also care about the baby's natural rights this side of the womb too.

After the right to life is secured and protected for the unborn child,

the very next natural right that child has is a right to be raised by the two individuals responsible for their existence.

Obviously this does not mean keeping children with dangerous and unfit biological parents.

It should therefore come as no surprise that when a culture and individual denies the natural right to life from which all rights flow to a child,

they will be just as quick and eager to deny the unaborted and now born child a natural right to their parents.

Whether it's abortion, third party reproduction, surrogacy or gay couples adopting, the underlying principle is the same.

Without being able to consent, the child is forced to give up their natural rights so that adults can realize their desires.

And I've been speaking out more against surrogacy and third party reproduction and I've been pissing off some of my social media followers.

But I care too much about truth to not offend you.

So we brought back on my good friend Katie Faust today, the founder of them before us with her wonderful book, Them Before Us, which I encourage you to read.

We had her on in June, but if you missed that episode, you're a new listener to the show or you wanted to dive deeper into these ideas.

Buckle up, this will be a fascinating conversation and it will equip you to stand for the natural rights of those the most unable to speak up and defend their own rights.

I'm Seth Gruber and this is Unaborted.

Katie, welcome back to the show.

Really good to be with you again. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I told you last time that I just didn't realize how much I was going to piss people off when I joined you in really taking a hard moral stance against surrogacy and third party reproductive technologies.

I know what a God sex is to the culture and how we've convinced ourselves that we can separate consent to sex from consent to pregnancy.

And we've convinced ourselves that we have the right to enjoy certain aspects of sex without the responsibilities.

But I didn't realize that you kind of had the flip side of that in the church that we should be able to have children without the sex and we should be able to rearrange the moral and scientific and biological puzzle pieces however we want in order to fulfill our desires.

I didn't realize how deeply that was running in the church and even in the pro-life movement.

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