Hi, I'm Sarah and this is the Squiggly Careers podcast where every week we take a different topic to do with work and we talk about some ideas, actions and tools to support you to navigate your squiggly career with that bit more confidence, clarity and control. This is one of our Ask the Expert episodes and you'll hear me in conversation with

Amy Edmondson. Together with Amy we'll be talking about intelligent failure and she'll be

talking about her new book, The Right Kind of Wrong. Amy is one of the few guests to make a

repeat appearance on the podcast and she is totally worth it.

She's so insightful and interesting and her work has had a really big impact on me both in terms of how we support other organisations with their career development

but also how I think about designing my days and the work that I do

and trying to do the best work I possibly can.

She is so enjoyable to have a conversation with because I think she has a lovely mix of optimism and openness, as well as

really wanting to make a positive difference through the work that she does. There's a reason

that I think she's just been crowned, if that's the right word.

Number one, management thinker in Thinkers 50.

So I think it basically means you're the smartest thinker in your academic world in what you do.

So it's incredibly impressive.

But she holds that impressiveness very lightly.

And I hope you enjoy listening to the conversation today.

Amy, thank you so much for coming back to talk to me on the Squiggly Careers podcast.

I'm so excited about our conversation today.

I'm so glad to be back.

Thank you for having me.

And we're going to jump straight in because, as I said, I've spent too long now interrogating your new book,

right, kind of wrong. I've got way too many notes. So I was like, right, let's start with the basics.

My sense is that not all failure is born equal. Does that feel fair? And how would you describe the different

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