The following is a conversation with Bjorn Lomburg and Andrew Reffkin on the topic of climate change.

It is framed as a debate, but with the goal of having a nuanced conversation, talking with each other, not at each other.

I hope to continue having debates like these, including on controversial topics.

I believe in the power of conversation to bring people together, not to convince one side or the other,

but to enlighten both with the insights and wisdom that each hold.

Bjorn Lomburg is the president of Copenhagen consensus think tank and author of false alarm,

cool it, and skeptical environmentalist.

Please check out his work at lambburg.com that includes his books, articles, and other writing.

Andrew Reffkin is one of the most respected journalists in the world on the topic of climate.

He's been writing about global environmental change and risk for more than 30 years, 20 of it at the New York Times.

Please check out his work in the link tree that includes his books, articles, and other writing.

And now a quick two second mention of his sponsor.

Check them out in the description.

It's the best way to support this podcast.

We've got eight sleep for naps, linode for linux, inside tracker for biological data, and on it for supplements.

Choose wisely my friends.

And now the full ad reads.

As always, no ads in the middle. I hate those.

I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors.

I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too.

This episode is sponsored by an old and favorite sponsor of mine

that brings so much joy to my heart eight sleep.

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