Welcome to the After-On Podcast. I'm Rob Reed, and I'm Tom Merritt. And this is a special

episode designed around the book, After-On. Each of these special episodes focuses on one

aspect of the science, tech, and social issues explored in the novel. Now, you don't have

to read after on in order to learn from or enjoy these podcasts. That's because we

wait until the very end to discuss the book in detail and to really tie it to this week's

topic. That last section will make perfect sense if you're reading the novel, but if you're

not reading it, just tune out at that point. You can always come back if you decide to

read it later. And we'll warn you before we get to that part. But first, we have a lot

of things to talk about which should be interesting to everybody. Specifically, privacy.

In the book, Flutter and other companies are skating on the edge, and maybe over the

edge, of the line between respecting and violating digital privacy. And that is a line that

lots of real life companies skate around on over and just back and forth on today. Who

better to talk about what's going on with digital privacy than Cindy Cone, head of the

Electronic Frontier Foundation. Yes, and Cindy has been on the front lines of the fight

for digital privacy since the 90s, when fighting for digital privacy was so new, there weren't

enough lawyers to do it. So let's talk to her about that and what's happening to your

privacy rights online. Thank you for sitting down with me, Cindy. Oh, thank you.

Here in your beautiful, sun-drenched San Francisco offices, I'd like to start by reading

what I believe is a new-ish tagline from your website, which is the leading nonprofit

defending digital privacy free speech and innovation. That feels like a pretty bullseye

and succinct description of EFF. And that is true. I think we are the oldest and the

biggest organization devoted to people's rights online. And what I like to say is when

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