Happy Monday and welcome to another edition of three more questions.

I'm Kula Callahan here with David Novak to debrief his conversation that he had with Roger

Crandall, who is the president and CEO of Mass Mutual.

David, I love this conversation.

Roger just seems like somebody that I would want to be

friends with. He's so down to earth. He's so smart. And the story behind Mass Mutual is an

amazing one. Yeah, he is a terrific leader. And his family is known for having great leaders.

His uncle was Bob Crandall, who was a CEO of American Airlines and actually mentored him. And so he's been passionate about leadership and learning about leadership for a long time. And I think this podcast is really, really worth listening, as all of them are. I know. I just said that he seems like someone I would be friends with. Then again, most of our guests do feel like friends. So that's a kudos to you and your

interview style and the quality of guests that we have on this show. Yeah, I think we're fortunate

to interview, as we say, the very best leaders in the world. And you don't get there by accident.

Absolutely. Well, David, I'm excited to get your take on some of the concepts that you and Roger

discussed on the full-length episode.

So let's get going with today's questions.

Let's go. Fire away, cool.

Question number one.

Roger is a leader who breaks down bureaucracy everywhere he sees it.

He knocked out much of the hierarchy that previously existed at Mass Mutual by flattening the organization. He even nixed their very meticulous office dress

code. And his goal in all of his bureaucracy busting is to create an environment where people

feel comfortable engaging. Other than org charts and dress codes, David, what can leaders do to ensure that bureaucracy

doesn't creep in and take over their company?

Declare war on bureaucracy. Just declare war on it. Let everybody in the world know that you

hate it. It's like bureaucracy is the enemy. So just go after it. And then

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