285 - The Nuremberg Psychiatrist
The WW2 Podcast
Angus Wallace
4.6 • 1.6K Ratings
🗓️ 15 November 2025
⏱️ 36 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
In the aftermath of the Second World War, the Allies brought twenty-four of Hitler's most senior figures to justice at Nuremberg. Among them was Hermann Göring — once Hitler's designated heir and still a commanding presence, even in defeat.
Before the trial began, the U.S. Army assigned a young psychiatrist, Captain Douglas Kelley, to assess whether these men were mentally fit to stand trial. For Kelley, it was the professional opportunity of a lifetime: a chance to explore the minds of the Nazi elite and discover what made them capable of such atrocities.
What he found was far more complex and unsettling than expected. Kelley's professional curiosity evolved into a disturbing psychological duel, especially with Hermann Göring — a man both monstrous and magnetic, whose personality thrived even in captivity.
In this episode, I speak with Jack El-Hai, author of The Nazi and the Psychiatrist: Hermann Göring, Dr. Douglas Kelley, and a Fatal Meeting of Minds at the End of WWII. Jack draws on Kelley's long-hidden papers and medical records to tell this extraordinary story, which has also inspired the upcoming 2025 film Nuremberg.
Please note that this episode includes a discussion of suicide, which some listeners may find distressing.
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | This country is at war with Germany. We shall go on to the end. I remember the sheets of |
| 0:09.5 | flame which came up and almost blinded us from our guns. In the aftermath of the Second World War, |
| 0:23.8 | 24 of the most powerful figures in Hitler's regime were brought to justice at Nuremberg. |
| 0:29.6 | Among them was Hermann Goering, once seen as Hitler's heir and still commanding even in defeat. |
| 0:36.6 | Before the shroud began, the US Army appointed a young psychiatrist, Captain Douglas Kelly, |
| 0:42.6 | to assess whether these men were fit to stand trial. |
| 0:45.6 | For Kelly, it was a chance of a lifetime to look into the minds of the Nazi elite |
| 0:51.2 | and search for what made them capable of such evil. |
| 0:55.3 | What he found was far more complex and unsettling than he expected. |
| 0:59.1 | His professional curiosity evolved into a disturbing psychological jewel, |
| 1:03.6 | especially with Herman Goering, a man both monstrous and magnetic, |
| 1:07.5 | who seemed to thrive even in captivity. |
| 1:10.2 | I'm Angus Wallace, and today my guest is |
| 1:13.0 | Jack L. High, author of The Nazi and the Psychiatrist, Herman Guring, Dr Kelly, and a fatal |
| 1:19.8 | meeting of minds at the end of World War II. Jack's book explores this extraordinary relationship, |
| 1:26.5 | drawing on Kelly's long hidden papers and medical records. |
| 1:29.9 | His work has also inspired the upcoming 2025 film, Nuremberg. |
| 1:34.6 | Welcome, Jack. Thanks for joining me. So before we get to Nuremberg, tell us a bit about Dr. |
| 1:40.2 | Douglas Kelly himself. Who was he? What kind of background did he come from? Psychiatry was still a |
| 1:46.7 | developing field. Douglas Kelly was born in California in 1912 in a rugged far west town in California |
| 1:57.6 | called Truckee. And Truckee is at the northern end of Lake Tahoe. And this is |
| 2:03.9 | significant because that is the area that decades before his birth, a group came through the area |
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