This is a Glassbox Media Podcast.

I'm Liz Flock. I want to tell you a story about how generations of trauma can lead to a point of no return.

In 2017, a black woman named Devon Gray killed her white boyfriend, John Vance.

She says it was self-defense and he was incredibly abusive.

But then she took a blind plea for manslaughter and got 15 years.

From Lemonada Media, this is Blind plea.

Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back to the Missing More Marie Podcast.

Lance, how are you tonight?

I'm doing pretty well. How are you?

Doing great. This interview is very fun. I think for us personally, we got to open up a little bit and we got to talk to two very smart brilliant, I dare say, professors from across the pond.

Yes, two professors of criminology. They listen to the podcast. They are extremely interested in the case.

They have their classes, study elements of the case and elements of other unsolved crimes.

Professor David Wilson and Professor Elizabeth Yardley are going to join us in just a little bit for a chat about secondary victims of homicide in newer media and article that they wrote and published recently.

Check the show notes for some links to information about that. Although I don't believe their paper is actually viewable online, but we do get into it a little bit.

Yeah, their paper is titled, to me, it's real life. And it's on the surface. It seems like it would be a pretty challenging read. It's about 30 pages, probably about 28 pages, once you get past the notes and the references.

Once you start reading it, it really feels familiar and almost like an instruction manual for those who contribute to true crime online.

What I mean is it shows you the cause and effect and the effect and the reaction of what people say and how it comes back to people who are close to that particular case.

We cover a broad range of topics, including our relationship to the Murray family, the ethics of doing a podcast like this, armchair detectives in general, people inject them themselves into this story and other stories, missing white woman syndrome, which is very interesting.

And of course, their personal theories at the end of the episode.

And the thing that really struck me was as I was reading it, so many things about it, so many elements of this paper were so familiar and so applicable to what we're doing. And I didn't realize it was going to be, you know, when we first asked them, if they wanted to be on, they sent us the paper.

I was a little nervous about what we're going to talk about and how it was going to be relevant to this case. But once I read it and once you hear the interview, you realize it's extremely relevant to this case and it's relevant to all unsolved crime.

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