Summary In this conversation, Dan Koch and Sarah Lane Ritchie discuss the challenges and complexities of worship music in evangelical and mainline churches. They explore the role of music in worship and the potential for manipulation and harm. Takeaways Music can be a powerful tool in worship, but it can also be used to manipulate and harm individuals. The assumption that if something is God, it cannot be described or understood is a dualistic perspective that limits our understanding of the divine. Music can be seen as a spiritual technology that helps individuals connect with the divine and create meaningful experiences. The conflation of music with God can lead to harmful beliefs and practices, particularly in evangelical contexts. The cultural reaction against evangelical worship music is often rooted in the harm caused by these practices, but it is important to recognize that music can have different effects on individuals. Worship music plays a significant role in both evangelical and mainline churches, but it can also be a source of tension and trauma for many individuals. There is a need for intentional curation of worship experiences to ensure they are emotionally and cognitively engaging, while also avoiding manipulation and harm. Embodied community is essential for a fulfilling worship experience, as digital communities cannot fully replace the benefits of in-person connection. Finding a balance between the positive and negative aspects of religious traditions is a challenge, but it is possible to navigate a path that allows for personal growth and flourishing. Worship music has the potential to cultivate a dispositional openness to what is both communal and divine, providing a sense of belonging and connection to something greater than oneself. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Self-Description 03:22 Exploring the Role of Music in Worship  10:40 The Harm of Conflating Music with God  25:09 The Cultural Reaction Against Evangelical Worship Music 37:27 The Cognitive and Emotional Challenges of Worship Music 41:39 The Perception of Modern Evangelical Worship 46:25 Religion as Nuclear Fission: The Power and Potential Dangers 59:39 The Dispositional Openness Cultivated by Worship Music 01:09:29 Navigating the Complexities of Faith and Tradition You Have Permission Podcast Sarah's Faculty Page Sarah's Twitter _________________________________________________ if you'd like to support our work, you can DONATE here! Get Tickets to Beer Camp (PROMO: TNEHOBBIT) Follow Us On Instagram @thenewevangelicals  Subscribe On YouTube @thenewevangelicals The New Evangelicals exists to support those who are tired of how evangelical church has been done before and want to see an authentic faith lived out with Jesus at the center. We are committed to building a caring community that emulates the ways of Jesus by reclaiming the evangelical tradition and embracing values that build a better way forward. If you’ve been marginalized by your faith, you are welcome here. We’ve built an empathetic and inclusive space that encourages authentic conversations, connections and faith. Whether you consider yourself a Christian, an exvangelical, someone who's questioning your faith, or someone who's left the faith entirely, you are welcome here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices