Hey there. You are listening to drinking from the toilet, and I'm your host, Hannah Branigan.

This week, through the magic of the internet, I got a chance to talk with

Swedish dog trainer Fannie Gott, who I've been a fan of for a long time. I love to read her blog,

and she has some really awesome videos on her YouTube channel that are great examples of really good

training. Fannie is a successful competitor with her own dogs, both in obedience and agility,

and she was generous enough to take the time

to chat with me between traveling home from competing in the European Open and leaving to

compete in the Nordic Championships, which I believe are both agility competitions. She travels

all over the world teaching seminars and also offers some online classes with her husband,

Thomas, who is also a dog

trainer. How cool is that? Through her website, fannygot.com. So make sure to check those out.

Our conversation primarily centers around the concept of a no reward marker, which you'll often

see abbreviated as an NRM and has been a source of a number of heated dog training arguments on the

internet. The idea behind the no reward marker is that the trainer has some signal that tells the

dog that reinforcement is not available for whatever just happened. So it's sort of like an anti-click.

Instead of, yes, that was it. It's, no, that's not it. And it can be kind of a hot topic in dog

training circles. Because, of course, hearing a buzzer that tells you that you're wrong can be

pretty aversive, even if nothing additionally unpleasant

follows it. So when you're actively trying to get the right answer, when you're actively

trying to earn reinforcement, a signal that tells you that you're wrong or that reinforcement is

available, it doesn't feel very good. So some trainers feel that the risk of emotional fallout is higher than

any benefit we could drive from telling the dog that he's wrong. Other trainers feel like it's

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