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Because, you know, when you look at a pantone swatch and you say, oh, here is, you know, like, whatever, we'll just say, here's forest fern and here's your forest burn color.

But if you were actually to create a dye bath with a forest fir, you end up with like this

amber like kind of pink. And it's a, it's a fascinating thing. So I always think of the pantone

aspect as kind of like the surface swatching where working with plant dyes or plant color becomes like

this, I don't, maybe visibility of an

inner working that we as humans may not get to see right away.

...