What's up everybody? This is Cortland from IndieHackers.com and you're listening to the

NDHackers podcast. More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money

in the process. And on this show, I sit down with these endy hackers to discuss the ideas, the

opportunities, and the strategies they're taking advantage of, so the rest of us can do the same.

I'm so happy you're my co-host. I tweeted last week that I've been trying to convince you to become my co-host, and I don't really know how you felt. But you seem kind of excited about it. And honestly, like, I have not been as excited to actually do the podcast in a long time. Like, I really have, I've been doing the podcast for four years, five years now since 2017. And I think it got kind of boring to me, like two years in. You know, there's some interesting episodes. There's some episodes that are boring. But I think what never went away was this feeling of anxiety that I get recording the show because it's always been a guest-focused show. I always bring on guests, most of the time they're first-time guests, and I have no idea whether they're going to do a good job or not. And that just gives me like mild anxiety. I don't like to worry about that.

And so I've been trying to find different ways to make the show fun for me to run forever and literally nothing has worked. But what's always fun for me, what's never not fun for me is when you and I get on a call and talk about indie hackers, talk about our lives, talk about what we're working on. And so I think the best thing we could possibly do for this show, at least for it to be fun for me, is to bring you on as my co-host and just literally completely change the entire format. Well, it's fun for you. Okay, but what about the calculus of what's fun for the audience? What makes you think that they're going to want to listen to me coming on and riffing about random ideas with you? I think people will like it. I think you're an intelligent guy. You're super smart. You're the most well-read person that I know possibly in terms of how often you read books. Most of the books that I read come from you. You just tell me that you read a good book and then I start reading that book. You know a lot about indie hackers and business and startups so you can riff with me.

We obviously have good chemistry. You know what you're willing to do that almost nobody is? You're willing to call me in my bullshit. Like you will call me out because you're my twin brother and you've been calling me out for 35 years and vice versa. There's maybe been one or two other guests on the show over the entire last five years who are willing to do that. And that's just like more fun for me and I think more fun to listen to. So I don't know. I think the audience will like it. We'll find out. But like I care more about like, do I like the show? And I really don't think people will stick with any show or any creation for that long. If the person making it doesn't enjoy doing it that much because they're not going to be putting their all into it.

Well, I like the idea of the fact that we meet every day for indie hackers and you speak about calling you out, like the thing I constantly call you out for is we get off topic because

we're riffing off of each other on really, really interesting topics, like the kinds of

stuff that we want to talk about in this podcast. So I like the idea that we can like have partitions, like we have a place where we can actually do this. And it's the thing that we're supposed to be doing. I think that's one of the biggest differences between us, though. It's like I'm like, I'm like this meandering wanderer. My days, like if you look at my calendar, it's pretty much empty.

If you ask me what I'm going to do today, I'm like, I have no idea what I'm going to do today. You're the exact opposite. You're like, I have a regimented schedule. I look my life literally on a timer and every minute of every day is accounted for like you're this productivity robot. And so when I go off topic, I'm like, oh, this is delightful.

Let's just talk about this.

And you're like, dude, we need to get back on topic where I've got places to be things to do whatever. I'm like, why don't you take a chill pill, dude? And so I feel like this podcast is the one way I can get you to actually chill the fuck out. I distinctly have the feeling whenever we have meetings that you have nothing better to do. Like, that's the feeling that I always like. I'm talking to my twin brother who I love about the business that I'm running that I love. Like, why would I have something better to do? That's awesome. I guess that's the dream. Everyone's got different dreams. I think the whole point of enjoying life is like I spent my 20s working on startups hardcore right and all of them failed except for Andy hackers and depending on your definition of failure you know some were kind of okay they made money but they weren't what I wanted them to be and I don't know how many times I turned down friends he said oh we're going to the soccer game you want to come we're going out drinking you want to come having a birthday party we're going to this trip I. You want to come. We're going out drinking. You want to come. Having a birthday party. We're going to this trip. I said, no, no, no, no,

because I was living entirely in the future. Like, I want to succeed at this thing that I'm working hard on. And so I ignored the present. I didn't live in the present. And I wasn't that happy. I was kind of fulfilled.

You know, I was doing things I like to do.

But I'm much happier now, I think, when I have a good balance of living in the present.

And part of living in the present means, like, not caring. fulfilled. You know, I was doing things that I like to do, but I'm much happier now, I think,

when I have a good balance of living in the present. And part of living in the present means, like,

not caring about what you have to do. It's kind of like not caring about your goals to some degree.

So I agree with that, but I almost feel like we approach it, we approach the same solution from different angles so with me like on the one hand

I want to have balance I want to like I want to spend time with my friends I want to spend time

with my girlfriends I want to talk to my brother but then I have all of these other things that I

...