250. BaaM & WaaM
At The Table with Patrick Lencioni
Patrick Lencioni
4.8 • 1.1K Ratings
🗓️ 2 September 2025
⏱️ 19 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
How would your workplace culture change if love and service were driving forces?
In episode 250 of At The Table, Pat and Cody introduce the concepts of BaaM (Business as a Ministry) and WaaM (Work as a Ministry). They explore how viewing business and work through the lens of service and love can create healthier workplaces and stronger organizations. Whether you’re leading a public company or managing a small team, this conversation will invite how you think about purpose, culture, and results.
Topics explored in this episode:
(0:32) Business as a Ministry (BaaM)
* How businesses can be seen as a way to serve others with love, going beyond just the transactional goal of making money
(3:10) The Case for Love in Business
* Tim Sanders’ book Love Is the Killer App.
* How fear-based businesses struggle while love-centered cultures thrive.
* The challenge of applying BaaM in public companies.
(5:48) Work as a Ministry (Waam)
* WaaM can be useful for employees in less purpose-driven organizations.
(8:07) Ministry Doesn’t Sacrifice Results
* John Gordon’s belief that love fuels high performance.
* Love-driven work produces results, but should be pursued because it’s right.
This episode of At The Table with Patrick Lencioni is brought to you by The Table Group: https://www.tablegroup.com. We teach leaders how to make work more effective and less dysfunctional. We also help their employees be more fulfilled and less miserable.
At The Table is a podcast that lives at the connection between work life, leadership, organizational health, and culture. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4hJKKSL), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4l1aop0), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/At-The-Table-YouTube).
Follow Pat Lencioni on https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-lencioni-orghealth, http://www.youtube.com/@PatrickLencioniOfficial, and https://x.com/patricklencioni.
Be sure to check out our other podcast, The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/4iNz6Yn), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/4iGGm8u), and YouTube (https://bit.ly/Working-Genius-YouTube).
Let us know your feedback via [email protected].
This episode was produced by Story On Media: https://www.storyon.co.
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | I don't even think shareholders are like, I want you to just maximize my return completely. |
| 0:07.0 | I think they want to know I'm getting a good return, but I'm investing in a company that's doing something that matters. |
| 0:17.6 | Welcome to At the Table, the podcast that lives at the intersection of leadership, teamwork, organizational health, and culture. |
| 0:24.7 | I'm your host, Pat Lancholy, joined by Cody, my co-host, who is obviously doing quite well today. |
| 0:30.6 | Thank you, Pat. |
| 0:31.7 | Yeah, so am I. |
| 0:33.1 | What are we going to talk about today, Cody? |
| 0:35.5 | Bam and Wham is the title. That's right. Might need |
| 0:39.2 | some explanation. Maybe not. Maybe not. BAM stands for business as a ministry, and we'll |
| 0:46.5 | explain WAM in a second. But last week, I had a chance to spend a day with a guy named Mike Sherrill. |
| 0:51.2 | Mike heads up something called C12, which is an organization that |
| 0:54.9 | brings together Christian CEOs to work together to try to support one another and learn about |
| 1:00.9 | how to be better leaders and make their organizations more faith-based. And he introduced this |
| 1:07.7 | concept to me called Business as a Ministry. And it's a takeoff on the idea of S-A-A-S software as a service. |
| 1:15.0 | And I really like the idea and I thought business as a ministry. |
| 1:17.9 | Now I'm a follower of Jesus, a Christian. |
| 1:19.2 | You are too, Cody. |
| 1:20.6 | But even if you're not, I think there's something really important to be said here. |
| 1:25.0 | That our businesses can be seen as ministering to others, is serving others |
| 1:31.8 | in love. Okay, I know that sounds soft, but every business can ask itself, like, how are we |
| 1:38.9 | a ministry? How are we serving others in love? Now, some are easier to do than others. |
| 1:50.1 | But I think the thing is the best places to work and the best places to be a customer and the best places to lead are ones that understand that the work they're doing is about |
... |
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