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All right. Hello, Rebecca. Very nice to meet you.

Hi, Joe. Very nice to meet you, too.

So, first of all, what got you interested in mind control? Well, so this is a

question I've been asking myself just because I find myself after two and a half decades of

having this topic. That initially seemed pretty niche and unusual and not many people were interested or many people

were skeptical about it but I thought it seemed like it embodied some of the more extreme

if you could look at the way people are shaped by their environments and by their you know what parts of your life are determined by you and what parts are determined by their environments and by their, you know, what parts of your life are determined by you

and what parts are determined by outside forces, that mind control would be a perfect area

to investigate that because it's so extreme, especially if you looked at particular cases.

So I, because I had done my dissertation at UC Berkeley on the history of behavioral engineering

and how, you know, these kind of models for creating a society of control and encouragement

in various ways, like a behaviorist kind of dream.

And it seemed like the next step was to look at something like brainwashing or mind

control. When you first started studying it, was it a less public sort of curiosity? Because now a lot of

people are very much interested. I blame the internet, mostly. I probably had a lot to do it too.

You and the internet. A lot of people on the internet, mostly. I probably had a lot to do it, too. You and the internet.

A lot of people on the internet are, you know, because over time, you know, people have gotten

to know about MK Ultra and a bunch of different programs that our own United States

government was involved in, where they were

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