Summary In this conversation, Derek Kubilus discusses the concept of sin as the refusal to love and the importance of understanding it in a broader context. He also explores the difference between purgatory and purgation, emphasizing the idea of refinement and growth in the afterlife. Derek shares his perspective on the salvation of those who have done harm and the essence of the divine in every person. He challenges the notion of eternal damnation and highlights the need to respect the pain of others while recognizing the depth of God's love. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the cognitive dissonance of eternal damnation. Takeaways Sin is the refusal to love, to include, and to make space for others. Purgatory is a Catholic concept of a holding period until one goes to heaven or hell, while purgation refers to the process of refinement and growth in the afterlife. The salvation of those who have done harm challenges our understanding of God's love, but it is a reminder that everyone carries the essence of the divine. Respecting the pain of others and acknowledging the depth of God's love can help navigate difficult theological questions. The idea of eternal damnation can create cognitive dissonance and contradict the concept of a loving God. Chapters 00:00 Understanding Sin and Refusal to Love 41:19 Purgatory vs. Purgation 43:32 The Fire of Hell and the Refusal to Love 44:54 Struggling with the Salvation of Those Who Have Done Harm 46:06 The Essence of the Divine in Every Person 47:08 The Redemption of Paul and the Refusal to Give Up on Anyone 49:11 Respecting the Pain of Others and the Depth of God's Love 51:34 The Network of Relationships in Heaven 53:41 The Inconsistency of Praising God While Others Suffer 56:07 The Cognitive Dissonance of Eternal Damnation Read Holy Hell: A Case against Eternal Damnation by Derek Ryan Kubilus Follow Us On Instagram @thenewevangelicals  Support Our Work Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices