As soon as we say that growth is the mission, we kind of show that we don't know what we're talking about, because growth is the result. You know, who doesn't want to grow? I don't know any country that would say, oh, we don't have a growth mission, literally. So you have to start with the investment, get it right, with the right conditionality. And if it works, you're going to increase public and private investment, which are the key foundations of growth. Hello and welcome to The Rest Is Money with me, Robert Peston.

And me, Steph McGovern, and also with us today, a podcast friend of ours, Mariana Matsukarty,

who as you know is brilliant on all things economics. She's a professor in the economics of

innovation and public value at University College London.

She's author of Mission Economy, a moonshot guide to changing capitalism, and she advised the Labour

government on their mission-led approach.

So a person we love talking to, and we always have loads to talk to her about, don't we,

Robert?

We do.

And as you say, I think what she's most famous for is this concept of

missions, how you drive economies by setting goals in certain ways. And she actually said on this

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