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This is CBS. I'm John Bassworth, my friend and colleague, Richard Epstein, a senior fellow of the Hoover Institution.

The professor teaches law at NYU in the University of Chicago. He's also writing about by nomics, which the president will take to the re-election campaign, which many pundits regard as a great success because, and then we come to why it is the public does not endorse this success.

The polling suggests there's unhappiness. We come to ESG. This is an obscure part of Wall Street salesmanship these last years.

ESG stands for environmental, social and governance reforms. Companies that endorse or at least advertise, they are ESG companies are expected to enjoy investment from other companies that boast to their clients.

This is the investor class that this is the future. I can guess, Richard, that the Hawaii electric company was in somebody's ESG portfolio is ESG and ESG is entirely endorsed by the Biden administration. But again, I believe the public is now reluctant.

Yes, and I think the incentive has changed when I started worrying and talking about this issue a couple of years ago, it was like you were favoring this in an excellent way, every respectable person.

I said that the man that we never want to believe is somebody as silly and narrow-minded as Milton Friedman. What we have to do is to understand that boards are directors are not responsible to shareholder, they're responsible for stakeholders and stakeholders are everybody on the face of the globe.

And that when you start looking at the social stuff, what it tends to mean is that we're not in favor of market solutions, we're in favor of every regulation of labor markets, financial markets, insurance markets, banking markets, you name it, all which is going to be destructive.

And the governance is that when we come to doing our own situation, we don't care about excellence as such, we want to get qualified people and put them on.

Joe Biden made a very instructive remark about this when he was trying to defend his views on the affirmative action decisions that took place with respect to North Carolina and Holland when the Supreme Court basically went down.

He said, well, you remember all these people want these candidates to see so qualified. Well, qualified is a very big word, what he couldn't say is all these people we want to get in there are the most qualified people for these particular position.

And in fact, they will less qualified than many others. So you start using the word qualified, but you're really trying to do is to lower the bar, get lots of people over that particular bar and then use irrelevant criteria to decide by race or by national origins or by sex, whom you want to put into these positions.

But if you go back and ask yourself what's going to happen, I think a PG and a it couldn't maintain its power lines, but it had the best diverse ratings of any company in the United States.

That's the problem. The two things are inversely related. You start compromising on quality, you start increasing risk. There is no way in which you could avoid that.

And so when you start thinking about how you put together a firm, if you're trying to actually make profits and to do services to community, you're not interested in qualified people.

You're interested in the most qualified people that you can find. And in fact, at that particular point, diversity is extremely important because if you are silly enough to let you have views on race or on sex or anything else, turn down the best pop I person for a particular job, you are making a massive distress.

But it's a good sense of diversity. Is it a situation where it says, take anybody who can help you.

Recently, I saw the movie again, 42. I've known what you saw. There was Leo DeRotion, very outspoken guy.

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