191 - Danny Ryan's Case Against Lido
Bankless
Bankless
4.7 • 1.2K Ratings
🗓️ 9 October 2023
⏱️ 82 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Danny Ryan is a coordinator at the Ethereum Foundation. He’s been on Bankless many times before. Usually, we’re talking about the Ethereum roadmap and what’s coming next. This time we’re talking about something different…a risk to Ethereum that Danny sees. A little over a year ago, Danny wrote a blog post titled “The Risk of LSDs”... discussing the various risk vectors that a dominant LSD presents to Ethereum…even naming Lido specifically in the process.
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✨ DEBRIEF | Ryan & David unpacking the episode:
https://www.bankless.com/debrief-danny-ryan
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A lot of people have decided that liquid staking with Lido is the place to do it. At the time of recording Lido has over 30% of all staked Ether. Does this present a systemic risk to Ethereum?
We did an episode called, “In Defense of Lido” with researcher Hasu who argued that Lido does not pose a systemic risk to Ethereum. In fact, Lido’s dominance is better than many other alternatives. We left that conversation half-finished when we published it in August 2023.
In today’s episode, we cover part two of that debate with Ethereum researcher and guest Danny Ryan who argues the opposite. Lido is a systemic risk to Ethereum and what to do about it.
We believe our role as podcasters for issues like this is to voice both sides of the argument in long-form conversations and healthy debate. It is exactly the kind of thing you don’t get on Twitter. That’s why we’ve given voice to both sides of this issue.
We think there are good actors who care about this ecosystem at Lido and in the broader Ethereum community and we’re sure this episode won’t be the last word on this subject.
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TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro
7:41 Is Lido a Threat to Ethereum
8:57 Blog Post Thinking Change?
19:30 Uniswap
21:20 Theoretical Main Risks
25:45 God Mode
27:20 Practical Main Risks
34:00 Hasu Counter-Arguments
38:25 Permissionless Validator Set Mitigation
42:30 Veto Power Mitigation Argument
46:55 How Likely is the Lido Risk?
51:26 Client Team Positioning
55:00 How Special is the Lido Case?
57:45 One LST Inevitability
1:02:30 Solutions
1:06:55 Profit Maximization
1:09:00 Action Steps For Ethereum Decentralization
1:11:53 Can Ethereum Devs Do Something?
1:20:10 Hasu Questions Answered by Danny
1:22:45 Magnitude of the Lido Threat
1:24:20 How Can Lido Fix This?
1:25:59 Stick & Carrot for Lido
1:26:27 Silverlining of Lido Threat
1:29:05 Next Conversations
1:32:16 Closing & Disclaimers
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RESOURCES
Danny Ryan
https://twitter.com/dannyryan
Danny Ryan Blog Post
https://notes.ethereum.org/@djrtwo/risks-of-lsd
Hasu’s Bankless Interview
https://youtu.be/IfuUdIblfrY
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Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures
Transcript
Click on a timestamp to play from that location
| 0:00.0 | Danny, I can guarantee there are going to be a lot of folks who are designers of the |
| 0:04.6 | LITO protocol and participants in their community who listen to this podcast, I think many of |
| 0:08.6 | them listen to our episode with Haasu as well. |
| 0:11.2 | What would you say to them? |
| 0:12.4 | What would you like to see LITO do? |
| 0:14.9 | How can they fix this? |
| 0:25.9 | Welcome to Bankless where we explore the frontier of internet money and internet finance. |
| 0:30.4 | This is how to get started, how to get better, how to front run the opportunity. |
| 0:34.1 | This is Ryan Sean Adams and I'm here with David Hoffman and we are here to help you become |
| 0:38.2 | more bankless. |
| 0:40.2 | Where should you stake your ether? |
| 0:42.5 | A lot of people have decided that liquid staking with LITO is actually the best place |
| 0:46.3 | to do it and at the time of recording the staking protocol LITO has over 30% of all staked |
| 0:53.4 | ether on Ethereum. |
| 0:55.0 | The question today, does this present a systemic risk to Ethereum? |
| 0:58.8 | So we did an episode called in defense of LITO with crypto researcher Haasu who argued |
| 1:03.5 | that no, LITO does not pose systemic risk to Ethereum. |
| 1:07.2 | In fact, he argued LITO's dominance is better than many other alternatives that are out |
| 1:11.4 | there and Dave and I both felt we left that conversation half finished when we published |
| 1:15.4 | it in August. |
| 1:16.4 | So here's part two of that debate this time with Ethereum researcher and guest Danny |
| 1:20.3 | Ryan who argues the opposite that LITO is a systemic risk to Ethereum and he has some |
... |
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