Hi there. I'm Jason Gots, and you're listening to Think Again, a Big Think podcast.

The first time I attempted to play Minecraft with my then 7-year-old son,

we immediately dug ourselves into a pit in the earth and could not get out.

In spite of the crappy 8-bit graphics, all of our primal HP Lovecraftian

terrors of the underground were activated. We were trapped. We were lost. We might die down here.

Will Hunt, on the other hand, has been climbing eagerly since childhood into dank and disorienting

tunnels, caves, sewers, and other underground spaces, from abandoned

New York City subway platforms to ancient Mayan temples of human sacrifice in the caverns

of Belize. In his brilliant new book, Underground, he takes us physically and spiritually along on some of

these adventures. Part global subterranean travelogue, part meditation on human curiosity.

Underground plums the philosophical depths of our primal awe of what lies beneath.

And it almost makes me want to go play Minecraft where at least there are no rats.

Welcome to think again, Will.

Thanks so much.

Rats is not really a fair characterization of most of your journeys,

although there have been rats, yes? There have been rats. In the sewers in Paris, I definitely

encountered some rats. You know, it's never fun to see them. It's always a little exciting,

but never a good sign. Are you phobic of anything related to the underground?

Because I think I'm scared of almost everything related to the underground.

Like, I'm claustrophobic and I'm afraid of rats.

I'm not actively claustrophobic.

I have definitely had moments where I'm, you know, in a really tight cave passage or, you know, in a narrow space and something kind of

...