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So, how do we get from, I mean, how do we get from Tomage, Woodstock, Roberts, Iring, and others, all supporting, you know, science and evolution?

How do we go from there to the publishing of Managers of Origin and Destiny, then the publishing of Mormon doctrine, then the sort of infiltration of these ideas into the CES system to the point where I received sort of the anti-scientist teachings in the 1980s?

Like, how did so many scientists lose and Joseph Filling Smith win?

Do you have, I mean, in terms of that, I can answer that in two words, Mormon doctrine, because that sold so many copies and was viewed as by so many LDS people as being the authoritative statement.

And, you know, I mean, even now you read his comments in there, if you didn't know better, you would think very clearly that this was a, that the church condemned the theory of evolution.

So, but I'll add to that something that I think I picked up from the, from the article I cited previously.

And that's that Roberts, Woodstock and Tomage all died, like in the what, 30s, 40s or 50s, and Joseph Filling Smith went on to live for two or three or four decades more.

Like, is that also a fair explanation for how this happened?

Well, but again, remember that I don't think that Elder Smith's book was nearly as influential as Elder Maconkey.

As Elder Maconkey's? Yeah, and you, I think if it had only been Elder Smith's book, it probably wouldn't have been nearly as much of an issue.

And it sounds like you grew up in more of an era where Maconkey's book hadn't really taken hold in the mass culture like it had by the time I was growing up.

And, and Joseph Filling Smith's book just hadn't made a dent in the consciousness of writ large. Is that, is that fair to say?

I think that maybe I would just say what was especially what was different about my growing up is that I grew up with an environment with the LDS scientists all around me.

Right. At BYU. And so they had, they knew what the facts were and how all this worked out.

And I never really saw this more widespread view and the more widespread acceptance of Mormon doctrine until actually until I was like on my mission.

Right. Right. Right. So I think it's, it was, that was what was different is, is the environment I grew up was not the standard LDS environment.

Okay. So here's, here's sort of a pause in our historical recounting. And this is me just asking you a non scientific heart based emotional question.

It's probably not fair to do to a scientist, but I'm going to do it anyway. I'm not, I guess I'm trying to be a scientist now as I study clinical psychology and getting a PhD.

So I can't say I'm not a scientist, but you know, historically, I haven't affiliated as a scientist or sort of self described myself as a scientist, but even as someone who hasn't characterized themselves as a scientist up until now, when I read this history of how science sort of got the bad end of the deal.

At the hand of first Joseph Elling Smith within larger Brusar Maconkey and how it led to the environment that I experienced at BYU.

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