I'm not sure why, but as an adult, I've come to have a deep appreciation and admiration for magicians.

I rarely actually see magic perform, but when I do, I typically leave amazed.

How in the world did the magician do that?

I'm used to being able to make sense of the world around me.

That's how I spend my waking

hours, analyzing data to understand patterns and solve puzzles. But when I see magic, I'm like a little kid.

After a performance, only half jokingly, I asked my wife whether she thought maybe that was real magic and not just an illusion.

Welcome to people I mostly admire with Steve Levitt.

My guest today, Joshua Jay, is one of the most impressive and thoughtful magicians on the planet.

Not only is he a successful performer, he's also a leading historian of magic and even a pioneer in the academic study of magic.

I've only met Joshua once when he came to give a lecture at the University of Chicago.

Simply put, it was the best academic lecture I've ever seen.

I can't wait to hear what he's got to say today.

Joshua, I'm so happy to have you here today.

I'm so glad you asked. It's an honor, really. One thing I've noticed about your magic is that you almost always have one or two or three points where the audience thinks the trick is over.

And it's just the beginning of the trick.

Yeah.

That's obviously something you've cultivated and it's very powerful.

In magic, we call it kicker endings.

But the broader term is just storytelling.

I mean, I feel like I was in a room with the lights out, just kind of feeling my

way around magic for so long, long after I developed skills and started performing professionally.

...