Welcome back to Shemus Popery. I'm Joe Heschmire, and I got a fascinating invitation recently

to sit down with a guy named Kade to talk about Catholic sexual ethics and gay marriage and

trans stuff and all this stuff with a guy who at one point was a traditional Catholic and now

is an atheist who is living a gay lifestyle. Here's, so his name's Kate, sorry, I should

have started with that guy named Kade, and here's, I'm just going to let him introduce himself

in his own words. My background, I grew up in the secular suburbs of Minneapolis, kind of in a

cafeteria, Catholic household, going to a liberal parish. Earlier in early into high school,

I went down the apologetics rabbit hole,

so I got started with some Catholic answers. I think I read through like almost all of your

publications at the time, a whole lot of the radio show, got into the whole Matt Fred, Father

Mike Schmitz, who was actually in Minnesota, met him a few different times, and then wanted to discern

to become a Carmelite monk, loved the idea of religious life, and ended up in San Diego near Catholic Answers to study philosophy and filmmaking.

Eventually, since leaving, have deconstructed and fall much more on kind of like the agnostic atheist side, and also like to take a look at Catholic beliefs through a queer lens since coming out and living my hashtag best life, as people say on, on my woke left. was like an hour and a half, mostly on Catholic sexual ethics generally and natural law, and then gay marriage specifically.

And it was, I think it's fair. The way he's built it is more of a debate.

So there were times where you can probably tell, I'm not sure exactly if I should be jumping in or letting him speak. So there may be times when I jump in when I shouldn't and probably times where I didn't jump in and I should. So I give that as a little bit of background. I don't think he was trying to trick me. I think the conversation just went in a different direction than we thought it would. I think it was a really good conversation. I'm happy to have it. And I think

one of the things that it reveals is the difficulty in some ways of getting to the bottom of these

questions and the importance of getting our basic, some of it's called first principles right at the

outset. So when we're talking about sexual ethics, and we're going to be talking a lot about this idea of what's called natural law, but just on the moral law generally, I'm going to give a long clip here, and then I'm going to give some shorter clips as we go from the conversation. And by the way, I will include the entire conversation over on Kay's channel at the very end because he graciously put the whole thing up

and I don't think he added it at all or if he did it was just to eliminate some of like the awkward

ums and us or you know something like that so on sexual ethics I think it's important to understand

what we're talking about because this is something that not only do a lot of non-Catholics or ex-Catholics get wrong,

it's something I've even seen Catholics get wrong, where they think of the moral law as his

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