Good day, Thomas Jefferson, our podcast listeners, and thanks so very much for listening.

A really important conversation today, David, with our friend Dr. Joseph Ellis of Vermont,

and also Massachusetts, about the twin legacy of Jefferson with respect to race.

On the one hand, all men are created equal, and on the other, his really, his status as

an apartheidist.

And I want to say this much, I love Joe Ellis.

I know you do too, and he's been an enormous gift to this program.

I think he's more pessimistic, certainly more pessimistic than you and I are, and I just

want to say frankly, I think maybe a little too pessimistic about this question.

I think that we've come a long, long, long way, there's a long way to go, but I don't

think that the jury is still out on whether we can be a biracial republic.

The jury is, can we come to terms with the fact that we now inevitably are a biracial

republic?

These little gems that pop out of Professor Ellis's mouth, the one that just got me is that

he referred to as Jefferson as a person was quote, extraordinarily intoxicating.

And I thought that was just a great line.

Of course, you know, every time one becomes disillusioned with Jefferson as we all do,

then you read something about some invention or some great letter that he wrote to Edward

Jenner or some whimsical idea he had about rebuilding Monticello or some principled view

he had about library classification or whatever it might be.

And you just think he's a genius.

He's our Da Vinci.

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