Hello and welcome to the psychology podcast with Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.

Each episode will feature a new guest who will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself, others, and the world we live in.

Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

... And the So today we have Ryan Holiday on the show. I'm really excited to have Ryan on.

He's an author, writer, and marketer. He's the former director of marketing for American

apparel and an editor at large for the New York Observer. His latest book is The

Obstacle is The Way. Thanks Ryan for being on here. It's very good to be

here. Good to talk to you again. Yeah, it's really good to talk to you and there's

and preparing for this interview there's just so many different threads. You know, I feel like we could like chat for days.

But we don't have days. Okay.

I'll try to focus us a little bit.

Do you mind if we trace a little bit of your background?

Because I found that particularly interesting.

And for a personal perspective, I'm really interested in people who take alternative pathways to get to greatness or get to success.

So, I noticed that it said on your Wikipedia page that you dropped out of college at age 19.

Is that correct? Because now everything is you know necessarily correct that you read on

Wikipedia. Yes. Well so I dropped out, ironically, so I left school when I was 19, right, is the end of the year,

and then I moved in with Tucker Max, so I think you've had on the show before, right?

I've been on his show.

Yeah, yeah.

And so he was someone that I met in college.

I interviewed him, and I sort of became his intern

...