Hey, everybody. We got a great one today, you know, for a change, because Norm Ornstein is back.

Norm, of course, part of the Al Franken podcast, Pantheon of great guests.

How many shows has Norm done, Peter?

I don't know exactly.

Oh, that's right. We don't keep track.

No, no. We should.

Yeah. Well, if you're a regular listener, you know that Norm is a political scientist and scholar

emeritus at the American Enterprise Institute. And on Wednesday, I asked him to talk about the Israel-Hamas War.

So like the one I did with Aaron David Miller a couple weeks ago, this is a very sobering one.

It's been about four weeks since Hamas's barbaric attack on Israel, a 1400 slaughtered, 230 or so taken hostage.

And that has presented Israel with some very difficult choices.

Hamas launched this war knowing that it would bring death and ruin not only to many Israelis,

but also to many more

of its own innocent civilians.

And this is the tragedy of this week, and this war, Hamas knew that Israel would have no choice

but to retaliate in one of the densest places in the world and bring a death to many Hamas fighters,

but to far more innocent civilians whom Hamas deliberately embeds itself.

There are seemingly no good choices here, and Norm and I discuss the roots of this war and where it may be going.

It's a great, but very sobering one, you know, for a change.

Okay, Norm, thank you for stepping in on this.

This is not a fun day to talk about.

We've had some grim ones before.

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