Owaga, Owaga, which is of course Polish for Akhtung, Akhtung. Welcome to this very, very special edition of We Have Ways of Making You Talk.

And we've chosen Polish with our guest in mind. Joining us is the author Philippe Sans, who's written two of the most remarkable books in recent times.

Four years ago, East West Street told the story of both Philippe's family history, particularly his grandfather and grandmother, but also the story of the Nuremberg Trials and the development of Human Rights Law.

And now we have the follow-up, the Rat Line, which tells the story of Otto Vechta and his wife, Schollotto, both of our Nazis and Otto's attempt to evade justice after the war.

Philippe, welcome. Welcome to the podcast. You're, you're of course a podcasting mega star in your own right with the Rat Line, which has been a massive success, isn't it?

Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but I'm thrilled to be on this podcast with you two fellows because I've listened to it and I enjoy it.

And of course, your title could not be more apt.

Well, I've got to say, someone tipped me off and said, have you heard the Rat Line? I went, no.

And I listened to it and my god, I literally just sat through the whole lot. I was utterly gripped and I think I then wrote you a rather pathetic fan email saying how much I loved it, but I thought it was just completely fantastic.

I've got a lovely email from you, but I got a lovely email from you, but of course the real test in my household, as in many households, is the wife.

And the test for us was as follows, we were driving to Wales for a weekend, and I just had the first cut from our wonderful producer, German, you be and I said, would you like to listen to the, would you like to listen to the first episode? And she said, well, OK, let's listen to the beginning and see how it goes.

And after episode four, she said, no, no, I've got to carry on listening. And she is a very tough cookie. So if I cracked my wife. Well, there you are.

Well, this podcast means that I'm off in my office for an hour out of my partner's hair. So it works differently in this.

But it that way now the the the rat line is really the sort of second installment of the of the developing story that starts with East West Street, isn't it?

Because your family Polish Jews, I inevitably like so many people caught up in the taken by the Holocaust. And you went looking to find out the story of Levove,

Levove, Levove, Levove, this town that's had so many names, so many guises. And East West Street is the story of that.

How do you even begin to to embark on that journey research wise? Where do you start? Do you start with Hans Frank or do you start with your parents,

and go, where do you go? Grandparents, and go, where do you start? You start by accident. The best things in life are unplanned.

I get this bonkers invitation out of the blue in the spring of 2010. I can remember it like it was yesterday.

Would you come to Levove to the faculty of law to deliver a lecture on your work on crimes against humanity and genocide?

I had never even heard of Levove. I looked it up on the map. It was Lemberg Levove, same place. And the moment I worked at it was Lemberg, I thought, yes, yes.

I want to go there. Why do I want to go there? Because my beloved grandad, who I was very close to, he lived until 97, and I knew him very well. He lived in Paris. He was my French grandad.

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