So you work hard for your money, you pay your taxes, nobody's doing you any special favors to make ends meet.

And then you hear almost every day about some big company getting a handout from the government, cheap lands to build on maybe or some sort of huge tax break or just cash handed over.

Like general motors getting benefits worth three and a half billion dollars Intel getting 3.8 billion Nike to billion.

These are spread across many years of course, but what is your reaction to this is it outrage? Where's my handout?

Or could you be persuaded that giving these or other companies special treatment sometimes maybe often is actually good for innovation and for all of us?

Well that sounds like the makings of a debate, so let's have it. Yes or no to this statement eliminate corporate subsidies a debate from intelligent squared us.

I'm John Donovan, we are at the Kaufman Music Center in New York City. As always our debate will go in three rounds and then our live audience here in New York votes to choose the winner and only one side wins.

The motion eliminate corporate subsidies to debaters arguing for the motion starting first with Jack Abramoff.

Jack Abramoff you were once one of the most powerful lobbyists in Washington your career as a lobbyist ended in a national corruption scandal.

Eventually you went to federal prison for that and somewhere during that period you changed sides and you wrote a book about your rise and fall.

What is called capital punishment and since then you've been working with groups to reform our political system is that her cullion task even possible?

Well it's possible it's just extremely difficult because Washington is about grabbing power and grabbing money and grabbing things and people who grab things don't like to give them up as we'll probably discuss a little bit later tonight so it's possible but it's pretty John.

Jack who is your partner in this debate? My partner is the formidable Zephyr Teachout. Zephyr Teachout, hi welcome to intelligent squared.

So Zephyr Teachout you are author of the book Corruption in America you're an associate professor at Fordham Law School.

You famously ran for office in 2014 challenging the governor of New York in a primary you did not win but you got a third of the vote as a relative unknown surprising everybody and now you're running for Congress.

So what are you concluding after this experience can you win in politics and stay clean at the same time?

It's really really really hard and I'm going to do it.

Our motion is eliminate corporate subsidies we have two debaters arguing against the motion I first want to bring it to Kate Gordon Kate welcome to intelligence squared.

Thank you John.

So Kate you are vice chair of climate and sustainable urbanization at the Paulson Institute you are the former vice president for energy and environment at the center for American progress.

You have devoted your entire career to studying energy and climate change policy it all started with cows not the animal but the think tank center on Wisconsin strategy COWS cows what's far to your interest in the field?

Well you know John I was very car sick as a kid so getting out of cars and getting everyone else out of cars is a lifelong challenge for me but at cows I got to work on turning manure into energy and I mean who wouldn't want to do that for a minute.

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