This is Jonathan Peugeot. Welcome to the symbolic world. Welcome, everyone to Voices with Raviki.

I'm joined by and with my good friend Jonathan Pajou, whose work on the symbolic world deeply resonates with a lot of what I've

been doing work on. And as many of you know, no doubt know, and I find Jonathan brilliantly insightful

and his reflections on the symbolic aspects of existence and his ability to reshine and refurbish these stories

so that they can shine for us again is often, you know, it sort of catches you.

It's deeply impressive. So thank you, Jonathan, for coming. Oh, it's my pleasure. I always enjoy

talking with you, you know, ever since I discovered your work and kind of discovered the language

which you're developing also to talk about these subjects. It's been really helpful to me.

I find myself thinking in the categories that you are bringing you are bringing forth and especially speaking to

kind of a secular audience or also convincing Christians that the things the words they use

have meaning you know because sometimes we have this kind of internal language and and it stops

to actually be meaningful in the world and it just becomes like a kind of magical language.

So I've been using your expressions on attention, the idea of relevance realization.

All of these expressions have been good to help people re-see things in a different frame so that they understand them.

So I really appreciate our discussions for sure.

Well, thank you for saying that, Jonathan.

I aspire to this being true,

that above and beyond trying to convince or persuade people

about my specific claims, truth claims,

theoretical claims, proposals, practical endeavors, et cetera.

I aspire that I do afford a vocabulary and a grammar

for people that helps them to clarify and develop their thinking.

...