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There had to have been some cracks in how you perceive the church and leadership and everything.

You know, at some point, at some point, I read the CES letter in 2013. I read it right when it

came out, John. Okay, so, so, and this is the point I'm making. Like, for a long time when you're on

this guilt and shame cycle, it's always me, it's always me, it's always me. It sounds like that,

that erroneous, egregious, temple calling and then withdrawal and exclusion. If I write and

understanding that that maybe started some cracks in your faith, where you're like, wait a minute,

this whole time I've been saying I'm the problem. Nature. And so what, talk about that mindset.

So what year was that temple calling about approximately? It would have been around 2007.

So between 2007 and 2000, let's just say, 14ish. Yeah.

Some things start changing. So just really quickly describe those seven years.

What happens to how you view the church and how you view yourself and how you view your family in

the church? I began, Chris, I want to hear your perspective of those seven years.

Okay. Those seven years, I began to be very suspicious of church leaders.

Very much so. Yeah. I began to think that a lot of them were just putting on a faith.

I began to think that there was this hierarchy and I didn't like how people glorified

the brethren as they call it. I didn't like it. I started to see church leadership for what it was

...