Building a coffee business, serving the best Americano in town is up to you. But winning back time and growing your business, leave that to sum up. Take orders and payments anywhere with the new SumUp Terminal. Turn occasional customers into regulars with a free loyalty program. And with the sumup point of sale system, you'll always know when you're running low on your best selling blends. Visit sumup.co.uk to learn more. Hey guys, Sarah Longwell here, publisher of the bulwark. If you're a fan of the next level

with me, Tim and JVL, then we think you're going to love the secret podcast. Now, the secret pod

usually just comes out on Fridays. It's me and JVL. We argue about everything, why he hates people, why I like people, you know.

But it's an opportunity to go a lot deeper with us. We often talk about our kids and movies and

other things, not just politics. And look, we don't do a lot behind the paywall. JVL always says,

and I agree with him, you can't save democracy from behind a paywall. And so we don't do a lot behind the paywall. JVL always says, and I agree with him, you can't

save democracy from behind a paywall. And so we try to do almost everything at the bulwark

for free. But we also got to keep the lights on. And so we paywall the secret pot and we ask

people to go a little deeper with us, come ride with us, come hang out with us. We think you're going to love it.

And this week, actually, I've got Bill Crystal because JVL is on vacation with me on the Seeker Pod. Subscribe on iTunes here on Apple. You'll get the whole show. I think you're going to love it. I think you're going to love going to love going to love going to love going to love going to go deeper with us in general. You'll love the show JBL and I do every week.

If you like TNL, this is for you.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Secret Podcast on the bulwark. JVL is out today. I'm here with my other best friend, Bill Crystal. Bill, what's up? Good morning. Welcome to the Secret pod it It's great. It's an honor to be on the Secret Pod. Very restricted to just to very, very few people for you and JVL. So happy to pinch it. These are the people who go deep with us. What's going on? What's going on in Secret there, Sarah?

Well, here's what I'm excited about, because JVL and I have an ongoing conversation in which the

secret pod listeners, I assume, are quite invested about, you know, the nature of good and evil,

human beings. Are they good or are they bad? Are they smart or are they stupid? I think you can

imagine which side JVL takes, which side I take.

But you and I also have our own ongoing conversation because you have a substack show that you do on Sundays.

And when I come on, we tend to have, you and I talk have two things that we're sort of mutually obsessed by.

One is how do we get Donald Trump to 32% approval rating for people who have not been listening

to Bill and I have this conversation? You should know two things. One, that Bill and I are,

Bill and I were the OGs of the bulwark coming together. And it was always, but,

but not, not the bulwark. Bill and I were engaged in projects to how do we defeat Trump? How do we,

...