Xiaohongshu's "TikTok Refugees," with Ivy Yang and David Fishman
Sinica Podcast
Kaiser Kuo
4.8 • 676 Ratings
🗓️ 19 January 2025
⏱️ 64 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
I know I'd said last time there would be no show this week, but that was before this fascinating episode involving TikTok users signing up en masse to Xiaohongshu. Hilarity ensued, and my two guests — Ivy Yang, who runs Wavelet Strategy, an expert in cross-cultural communication, and David Fishman, Shanghai-based senior manager at Lantau Group who specializes in the Chinese energy sector and writes wonderfully about his excursions into the Chinese countryside. They've both been following this fascinating episode closely and have really smart things to say, so enjoy!
5:10 – How the migration of American Tiktokers to Xiaohongshu started
8:51 – A brief overview of Xiaohongshu: its users, typical content, and culture, including its “we’re all in this together” vibe
15:35 – The significance of Xiaohongshu as a Chinese app
19:48 – The scale of the American TikTok refugees phenomenon, and official reactions in the U.S.
24:52 – How Xiaohongshu has managed and reacted to the refugee phenomenon so far, and the PR opportunity presented for the PRC
29:33 – The Chinese government’s perspective
34:54 – Wholesome and interesting exchanges, and what American and Chinese users are finding surprising or amusing about each other’s cultures
38:50 – Why this new online encounter between Chinese and Americans is different from before
43:23 – The danger of irrational exuberance, and other risks the Xiaohongshu migration phenomenon presents
47:52 – The potential for a change in American thinking about China
Paying It Forward:
Ivy: Caiwei Chen
David: Robert Wu and Amber Zhang, especially their work on Baiguan, and Robert’s Substack China Translated, especially his essay, “The Great Divorce”
Recommendations:
Ivy: Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence by Dr. Anna Lembke
David: Oracle Bones: A Journey Through Time in China by Peter Hessler
Kaiser: Other works by Peter Hessler (River Town: Two Years on the Yangtze; Country Driving: A Chinese Road Trip; and Other Rivers: A Chinese Education), and Telecaster type electric guitars, especially the Sire Larry Carlton T7
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Welcome to the Cynica podcast, the weekly discussion of current affairs in China. |
| 0:12.9 | In this program, we'll look at books, ideas, new research, intellectual currents, and cultural trends |
| 0:18.9 | that can help us better understand what's happening in |
| 0:21.1 | China's politics, foreign relations, economics, and society. Join me each week for in-depth |
| 0:26.7 | conversations that shed more light and bring less heat to how we think and talk about China. |
| 0:32.9 | I'm Kaiser Guo coming to you from Davos, Switzerland, on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum. |
| 0:39.4 | Cynica is supported this year by the Center for East Asian Studies at the University of |
| 0:42.9 | Wisconsin-Madison, a National Resource Center for the study of East Asia. |
| 0:47.5 | The Cynica podcast will remain free, but if you work for an organization that believes in what |
| 0:52.3 | I'm doing with the podcast, please consider lending your support. |
| 0:55.9 | You can get me at Cynicapod at gmail.com. |
| 0:59.6 | And listeners, please support my work at www.cinapodcast.com, become a subscriber and enjoy, |
| 1:06.8 | in addition to the podcast, the complete transcript of the show, essays from me as well as |
| 1:11.5 | writings and podcasts from some of your favorite China-focused columnists and commentators. |
| 1:17.0 | Make sure to check out the latest series from our friends at Johns Hopkins Seist, |
| 1:21.1 | studying China in the absence of access, which will run across the next few months. |
| 1:26.2 | I was originally going to skip putting out the regular |
| 1:28.6 | podcast this week as I'm about to start my work I do each year at the World Economic Forum, |
| 1:33.7 | but the stranger-than-fiction mass migration of mostly American TikTok users to Chinese app Xiaohongshu |
| 1:40.9 | is just a topic that demands an episode. |
| 1:44.4 | So even though I had to put this together in a hurry, I lucked out by getting, well, |
| 1:49.3 | the two individuals who would have been my top picks to talk about what we're going to |
... |
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